Aug 30

My Challenge to Michael Arrington & TechCrunch (Hint: it’s Not Hard)

angry chimpI’m not going to lie. I’m pretty shook up. I had no idea there were men out there who would be so offended by me merely stating that women can be good at math and science too.

If you didn’t see, I merely mentioned to a TechCrunch commenter on this post about female entrepreneurship that my math SAT was, in all probability, higher than his. While this wasn’t the coolest thing I could have come up with, it was Saturday night, I was tired after babysitting a drunk friend, and it was in response to his notion that women somehow are not as good at quantifiable intelligence. I also mentioned that great leaders (since the post was about the lack of female entrepreneurs), can actually have a host of different skills, and generally surround themselves by people who make up where they lack.

What ensued was a barrage of comments about what an idiot I am for somehow believing women can be capable of the same tasks as men. I was called the “c” word, had my privies referred to as a “gash”, was called illogical, arrogant, angry, and a troll. Someone said that if I don’t like how my female body works, I can euthanize myself legally in Oregon. One commenter even blamed the decline of the economy on feminism and another said he would short sell any stock of a company with a female CEO.

If Michael Arrington and the people at TechCrunch really want to be heroes in this whole debacle and actually do want to promote female entrepreneurs, they should tell all those nasty commenters to piss off. Seriously. You aren’t going to get respectable women in your restaurant if there is a table of lewd, ape-like men in the corner who berate any woman who walks in the door. Mr. Arrington, how would you feel if you came to my blog, commented, and some woman called you a sexist, illogical freak? How would you like it if these women were not only upset at you for suggesting that they need to work harder, but they were actually calling you a d**k and suggesting you euthanize yourself? You would not want to come back, but would be very torn on this if my blog were one of the most influential blogs in your industry. You would expect that I would defend you especially if you were being perfectly reasonable. I would do that, because although I love a good healthy debate, I also recognize that stereotypical and unfair attacks solve nothing and hurt people.

Think about it this way–you are telling the apes to go away, so all the respectable people you like will come back. We want to, Michael. We totally do. I felt like I was doing a service to women by basically defending the notion that we can be intelligent leaders too. This morning I sat in my shower and cried for 20 minutes because those commenters exemplified the attitude that has made me feel like I cannot succeed in this market. I’ve worked my butt off my entire career, and I have innumerable horror stories about sexist bosses who were embarrassingly less competent than I was. It makes you defensive and question your own abilities. And unfortunately I’m not alone.

So I know I have to stand up for myself. I know I have to have a thick skin, compromise when it’s necessary, and just let the haters roll of my back. But can you do us a favor and at least call out the haters who literally add nothing to your conversations but nastiness? Can you take a stand against the band of chimpanzees who tear everything that is different from them to pieces, instead of requiring me to fend them off myself? If you really want to make women a part of your community, than show us because it’s really not that hard. We’ll come back.

  • Rafael Marquez

    Michelle, haters are going to hate. Just know, that not all men are misogynistic pigs. While I agree that @arrington should say something, the nature of open comments allows cowardly people to spew their vitriol somewhat anonymously. I think if we all adopted the “would I say this to someone’s face” rule, online discourse would probably be more civilized.

  • http://pinqued.com Jen Wojcik

    Well put Michelle.

    Unfortunately, it is precisely this attitude that keeps otherwise intelligent, capable women from entering the entrepreneurial arena. Classic case of “a few bad apples ruin the whole bushel”.

    I can only surmise that the arrogance and poor taste of some commenters at the TechCrunch post was driven by their own basic insecurities. They are threatened by women, or anyone for that matter who can stand on their own feet. They bury themselves in academia, societies that espouse arbitrary measures of intelligence or corporate ladders so they can feel safe.

    It has been my experience as a serial entrepreneur and fairly intelligent individual that those who cannot do, criticize those who can. They tear down others to validate themselves.

    I tend more to feel pity than anger toward these individuals.

    C’est la vie.

    Jen

  • http://michellesblog.net Michelle

    Rafael, I fully acknowledge that everyone gets blasted out there and that being hypersensitive helps nothing. Heck, Arrington is getting some serious pot shots from that post he totally doesn’t deserve, right now. It’s not cool. But I doubt any feminist is telling him to euthanize himself (or maybe I’m just not seeing these comments) and if they said that on my blog, I’d tell them to shove off because that is not cool.

    My point is that if you really want women around, you need to tell the boys to quit yanking their pigtails and having farting contests in the sandbox. It’s not hard to do.

  • http://www.myerman.com Tom Myer

    I was mortified to read some of those comments by fellow members of my gender. Frankly, I was embarrassed as shit to be a man.

    I wonder how many other men feel the way those commenters do, but lack the balls to actually say it out loud? To me, their commentary is no different then the vile racism spewed by a member of the KKK.

    Yeah, this isn’t hard, but at the same time, it sure seems to be.

  • http://michellesblog.net Michelle

    While you are spot on about your assessment of these sad individuals, I’m not sure why the #1 tech blog in the world is where they gravitate and why others should have to deal with their stupidity.

  • Julie Pippert

    Very well said.

    Those comments are *exactly* why this 5 years in business for herself successfully with NO VENTURE CAPITAL woman entrepreneur is an entrepreneur and no longer working in an MIT launched high tech in Cambridge.

    But I’ve been round this Mulberry Bush with Michael Arrington before and my expectations are very, very low when it comes to do the right thing.

    Your last two paragraphs NAIL IT.

    And that’s why I work when, where and how I do now, mostly with awesome women. Because now I love my every day of work. Instead of walking in a door with a sinking feeling, wondering which sexism battle I’ll have to fight today.

    And, FTR, I have worked in a few fields and industries, and in these other ones, many to most men were awesome. But tech? The worst, hands down. I never saw a stripper in the office of my 50/50 men to women publishing company office, but I did in a software company.

  • http://www.rachelslabnotes.com Rachel ‘Groby’ Blum

    Good luck with that undertaking. Anonymous discourse (especially in the tech industry) is nothing more than a dung heap. Take a look at what happened to Kathy Sierra….

    And while @arrington might or might not say something, it will only happen after the controversy has drawn sufficient eyeballs.

    So, in short, I’m really sorry you had to experience this. I hope your call to @arrington makes a difference, but I doubt things are going to change any time soon. I’ve basically given up – the people I work with are decent guys, and I try to support women in tech, but I’m not debating these issues in online forums any more.

    As Heinlein said: ““Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.””

  • http://michellesblog.net Michelle

    @Tom I thought of exactly that. They don’t see it. It’s hard.

    @Julie It’s like you never know if you can be a part of it. You struggle and you try and they don’t see how it’s the LITTLE THINGS that tear you up each day, slowly and surely.

  • Cleaver Barnes

    I didn’t read much of that trainwreck on Techcrunch. There wasn’t much provided in the way of cogent arguments, rather “hey! look at me!” seemed to be what was communicated. In any case, I’m not sure if anyone mentioned it, but businesses started by women are more likely to succeed. This was the case for Canada and I assume the US would be similar.

    The other message from the comment thread was that men are generally much more adept at these pissing contests. We grow up that way. In a setting like that it is easy for the kid who was picked on at school to get some retribution from behind his web persona.

    It would be possible for women to get better at that sort of comment–most of the comments were riddled with logical fallacies that could easily be ripped to shred. The second option would be to crack down on that sort of behaviour. I don’t see that as any impingement on free speech: the users in question have complete freedom to start their own tech blog and argue until they’re blue in the face. While a healthy discussion is great, there wasn’t really much of value there. I see no problem with the second option.

  • http://burningbird.net Shelley

    I glanced at the comments to the article again. You can tell a lot about a site from the comments, and a person coming into Techcrunch and reading these comments are going to assume every man hating woman in the world follows Techcrunch.

    I have never seen so many comments from people who hated women as much as I’ve seen in that post.

    And I’m sure that Michael Arrington is eating it up because, in my opinion, he’s one of the biggest sexist in the industry–employees at Techcrunch, notwithstanding.

    Unfortunate that he gets attention for such outrageous postings as this.

  • ptp

    I was less appalled by the post itself, which just seemed really dense and tedious (to borrow someone else’s adjective), than I was by the comments. I’m glad to see this post, and I’m glad you’re calling out the comments and poor moderation thereof.

  • http://www.jenniferlucille.com Jennifer Huber

    The internet will always provide a cloak of anonymity for those who desire to lash out at others, but would not dare to say such things in person.

    Unfortunately, I wasn’t terribly surprised at the behavior of the anonymous posters – the response to articles of men v. women in IT usually devolve into mud slinging and name calling.

    I believe Don Tennant (former editor for ComputerWorld) summed this whole situation up very nicely way back in 2007. The perplexity of online incivility and ignorance -> http://bit.ly/970LCn

    It seems to me that Michael Arrington has written a post that has caused a frenzy of comments, but has failed to acknowledge the direction the comment thread has taken as a result of his initial statements. In my opinion, responsible journalism dictates Mr. Arrington should make a statement regarding the vitriol that has surfaced as a result of his post.

  • http://pinqued.com Jen Wojcik

    @Michelle I think you answered your own question with the statement “the #1 tech blog in the world is where they gravitate”.

    Trolls will be trolls whether they know they are or not. They post there for precisely that reason…it is read by THOUSANDS thus enhancing their intracranial orgasm.

    “Don’t feed the trolls” is always a good rule of thumb. :-)

  • http://burningbird.net Shelley

    I will say this in fairness to Arrington — supposedly a male supremacist web site sent its followers to the thread to inundate it.

    A wiser course of action to take in these circumstances is just stop commenting.

  • http://www.techcrunch.com Michael Arrington

    Michelle, thanks for this, I retweeted it. One thing that is worth mentioning is this – normally most of those comments would have been quickly moderated out. But coincidentally we had just turned on Disqus moments before the post and there was some chaos in trying to get moderators approved so we could delete comments. By the time it was sorted out most of the really bad comments had so much conversation around them that it would have been weird to delete them. Sort of a perfect storm situation.

    However, what you say is being taken seriously. It’s an ongoing issue for us and all other large sites. We’ll continue to work on it.

  • http://www.myerman.com Tom Myer

    “Disqus ate my moderators?”

  • http://www.sheilasguide.com Sheila Scarborough

    Thanks for fighting the good fight, Michelle, and it is sometimes a fight.

    The whole TechCrunch episode actually serves a purpose….many people don’t see “what the big deal” is until they see a vitriolic, creepy bunch of comments like that on the biggest tech blog in the world. Nothing better could show the kind of crap that makes many intelligent women say, “Why the hell should I subject myself to THAT?” Why, indeed.

    There’s an opportunity here: women (and many men) who want to launch tech-based businesses are not interested in playing reindeer games the way they’re currently structured. We need to pick up the ball, leave the Field of Schmuckdom, and start our own game.

  • http://voiceoftech.com/swhitley Shannon Whitley

    A guy like that just loves the attention; it helps take his mind off the basement he’s living in. You fought a good fight and I was proud of you. Try not to let this tiny group of idiots get you down.

  • http://simplechatter.com Zach Moazeni

    Michelle,

    Very well written. It really is disgusting that women are blasted so viciously on the web.

    Someone mentioned it above, but this immediately reminded me of the ugliness around Kathy Sierra’s blog. It’s a self-fulfilling prophesy when we lament over the lack of female leadership and yet attack female thought leaders.

  • http://avc.com Fred Wilson

    @shelley – i do not think the wiser course is to stop commenting. i think the wiser course is to comment more. the only way to rid the internet of trolls is to take the discussion away from them.

  • http://avc.com Fred Wilson

    @michelle – i saw what happened to you in that comment thread and i was aghast. i think mike and his team are probably also aghast.

    it is not easy to control a wide open conversation. i have managed to do it on the AVC blog but i’ve had to work hard at it.

    and i don’t have nearly the traffic and audience that techcrunch has.

    so i would give arrington the benefit of the doubt on this one. it sure would be great if he came to your defense and the defense of all commenters getting abused. that might require a significant effort on his part because he can’t do it just once.

    maybe a better approach would be for Techcrunch to lightly moderate the comments and blacklist really bad behavior

    something needs to change over there and i think they know it.

  • http://www.johnrossharvey.com John Ross Harvey

    While I am not a woman, I fully understand your view and agree with it. I also find an open forum is invitation to trolls, having much experience with one in particular with a need to bend my words to suit its goals. My blogs and others I prefer to follow are moderated by the owners. Clearly a high profile blog should do the same.
    I would not accept blatant attacks as commentary, freedom of speech has limits, the best way of dealing with dirt is to clean it.

  • http://scotduke.com Scot Duke

    Michelle,
    What I have found is the bases of why these type of comments are made is primarily due to them being able to get away with saying what they say without any concern to anyone going to do anything about it. It is a shame the site does not see that those type of comments do not make the site look very attractive to others, but as you see, they are getting the tons of traffic they want to support that site so they win each time some makes a comment. Most of those who made derogatory comments seem to be commenting for the attention they can draw towards themselves and since they see there is nothing can be done to them for make those comments they create a ‘grind it in’ atmosphere.
    With that said, I don’t agree with any of the inflammatory comments made and feel you addressed the issue well and made an excellent point.

  • http://pinqued.com Jen Wojcik

    One last thing and I will leave it alone.

    As to the highest ever recorded I.Q.?

    Marilyn vos Savant: 228

    #suckit Mensa guy.

    http://www.nndb.com/people/656/000025581/

    Jen

  • http://flavors.me/juliegomoll Julie Gomoll

    Well said, Michelle.

    I foolishly jumped into the comment stream this morning. It seems I just never learn my lesson. I keep thinking that if I use just the right words, and if I present them calmly and cogently, I’ll get my point across. What the hell was I thinking?

    One of the many, many things that pisses me off about many of the comments on that thread is that if I agree with them, they get to be right. And if I disagree with them, I “prove their point”, and they also get to be right. It’s lose/lose all around.

  • Fran Stephenson

    Michelle: Your post makes me think of this — we’ve come so far and I guess we haven’t come that far at all down the road to gender equality. Now I know why so many companies I talk to about incorporating new technology into their communications plans are so afraid of the fire.

  • Earl Johnson

    I’m pro women but I have to disagree with you. Entrepreneurship is not easy and whining about nasty men doesn’t help the perception of women.

  • Matt May

    One thing I’ve noticed is that most of the time, the first male commenters on a sexism thread are somewhere on the continuum of supportive to apologetic to defensive. Then you come back 24 hours later, and as the defensive positions are probed, the comments get less rational, then so vicious that they can only be made anonymously lest the poster might suffer the indignity of having a woman weigh in on a hiring decision at some point in the future.

    Hmm. Defenders of a dominant culture expressing oppressive thoughts while cloaked in anonymity. That reminds me of something I read about in history class. Hold on a second, it’ll come to me…

  • Terry McKenzie

    It seems that the more social media we have the less sociable some people become. Maybe the lack of face-to-face time leads to bad behavior. Whatever the base cause, the end result should not be acceptable.

    “If you really want to make women a part of your community, than show us because it’s really not that hard. We’ll come back.”

    The sentiment covers female and male. Anyone looking for conversations, feedback, and challenges that raise the bar and lead to “what’s next” will not gravitate to shit-storm conversations. If TechCrunch is to be a serious player in the tech community as a leader and focal point for conversations and debates, they need to enforce standards. Knowing you will be held accountable for your behavior will raise the level of discourse.

    I agree with you, “… it’s really not that hard.” If it is that hard for TechCrunch, then the community needs to find/start an alternative.

  • http://feldmanfile.blogspot.com Len Feldman

    Another way to look at this is that discouraging the debate is the last thing that Arrington wants to do. Controversy brings more people to his website; more people means more page views, and more page views means more revenues. Every one of those trolls counted as a page view and generated advertising revenue.

    In the long run, of course, unmoderated comments turn into a cesspool of spam and invictive (and incidentally, try posting spam in a comment in TechCrunch and see how long it lasts.) Right now, they need the money more than they want civilized comments.

  • http://writeslikeshetalks.com Jill Miller Zimon

    FWIW on the comment thread at the orig post:

    If a blog has my name on it, I’m responsible for the tenor and tone – period. I’m heartened to see Michael Arrington commenting here and I look forward to seeing the stance TechCrunch will take. Maybe in some ways, it’s for the best – Michael (and others) can see exactly what it is that’s being talked about and can see how devotees can still say no to hanging out with people who write that way to other people. Sadly, Michael’s post itself somewhat started it/gave permission for that kind of tone to get injected into the thread – unintentional as it may have been, truly – because if he is saying, “leave me %&#%( alone already!”, it’s kind of a signal that hey, no one else really will be tasked to care either. Again – I do not know nor have I ever met nor do I follow Michael Arrington. But we all need to be aware of the consequences of our behavior, including our writing, no matter how strung out we are about a particular topic. You show that in this post about what you wrote re: my scores are better than your scores. Michael certainly could give a bit more back story on how it is that at his young age and with all his success and brains, he is really all done with helping solve this problem? Like Allyson Kapin alludes to in her post about this issue, if brains and talents like him give up, what in the world kind of cue is that supposed to give everyone else?

    Not good – not good. We can all do better.

    Thanks for writing this post.

  • http://www.karlgroves.com Karl Groves

    Maybe it is my misanthropy coming through but this situation on TechCrunch is more reflective of the fact that most people are too stupid and unkind to be allowed to comment on websites. So much can be said to explain the phenomenon of nastiness in blog comments, messageboards, and social networking sites, but it always comes down to the same thing – the same thing it was all the way back to usenet and BBSes: people are dicks. Anytime you allow the unwashed masses to post anonymous/ semi-anonymous messages, its like a magnet for jerks to out-jerk each other. The more anonymity, the worse it gets.

  • http://burningbird.net Shelley

    Uh, needless to say I meant to say:

    “I glanced at the comments to the article again. You can tell a lot about a site from the comments, and a person coming into Techcrunch and reading these comments are going to assume every woman hating man in the world follows Techcrunch.”

    Heck of a bad typo. Sorry.

  • http://burningbird.net Shelley

    Fred, I understand your point, and I’m not one to back down from a fight, but…

    There’s now close to a thousand comments. There are people who are really having a good time responding in the most negative manner to even the most innocuous statement. Now, we’re just feeding the machine.

    Seriously, do we really have the time?

    Personally, I think hundreds of women-hating comments says much about the post, and perhaps the site. When the comments are _that bad_ they have no credibility. It’s the subtle comments that cause damage.

  • http://liz-henry.blogspot.com Liz

    You aren’t alone in this Michelle, and I agree with you about comment moderation. What you say also applies to mailing lists, other online communities, and in-person events. When someone is wildly misogynist and the other community members *and hosts* don’t speak up, they are sending a clear message to women about who is valued and who isn’t in their community.

    I wonder if anyone will read those hateful threads and think “My god… I guess there is some sexism and misogyny in the world after all.”

  • http://blog.asmartbear.com Jason Cohen

    It’s astounding and sad that such a thing can still happen, and at that scale.

    I suppose another interesting problem is that it’s astounding. That is, it’s astounding only because I can’t believe people still think that way, but that’s because I must internally believe the problem is more-or-less solved.

    Of course in the circles I hang out in, it is, but it’s easy to forget we all live in bubbles, and this is a window into the larger world.

    But because I’m “astounded,” that means I’m not actively looking for it or battling it; I assume the battle is won.

    Clearly it’s not, and this is a great reminder of that.

    I too hope that Arrington and others everywhere take a more proactive stand against such crap. Honestly, some crap needs to just be deleted, and if not, then at least responded to.

  • http://www.talesfromthe.net/jon/?p=1552 Liminal states :: Stop whining and take some responsibility: a response to TechCrunch on women in technology

    [...] have been some excellent followup posts as well, including from  Cindy Gallop, Michelle Greer,  Jamelle Bouie, Eva Smith, Ivan Boothe, Laurie on Seldo.com, the uncredited What Do “Where [...]

  • http://erantravels.blogspot.com Eran Davidov

    Michelle – I wouldn’t take the hate mongers and sexists’s comments personally. I’m a guy and have worked with women, for women and had women employees throughout my career. There are a lot of us out there. The fact that there are assholes out there is not new and won’t change, but the rest of us are out there too.
    Keep making a difference!

    Eran

  • http://flavors.me/juliegomoll Julie Gomoll

    Liz: I’m really hoping the borderline people – the ones getting defensive but not hateful – learn a bit from those comments.

    Of course, I’m an idealist, so I’m trying not to get my hopes up.

  • http://www.audreywatters.com Audrey Watters

    Michelle, I am really sorry that you had to deal with this. I know firsthand from having written stories that point to the dearth of women in tech, that point to the sexism in some tech journalism how hard it is to be in your position. On one hand, it’s imperative we call people out for their misogyny. On the other hand, the even-more-misogynist backlash always makes me want to cry or barf.

    It seems so strange to type “you’re so brave…” when all we’ve done is pointed out sexism… I think that right there is a real indictment on the state of gender and the tech industry that it takes courage to do just that.

    But thank you, nonetheless.

  • http://www.chaione.com Marc Nathan

    I’m a little surprised your fairly innocuous initial comment got so much hate thrown at you over the course of a few hours. Haters gonna hate I guess. I work with several women, support a number of women founders (http://www.werkadoo.com , http://www.energypeopleconnect.com , http://www.recyclematch.com , http://www.kirtsy.com to name just a few) and I have a wife who is a professional in an unrelated field not to mention three daughters and another on the way – so I ‘get’ women entrepreneurs. You know I support you personally, and female entrepreneurs in general – these Techcrunch comments are not how most rational people (men included) think or believe. Keep your chin up, and keep fighting the good fight.

  • http://thesocialjoint.com Lucretia Pruitt

    Michelle: a mutual friend passed along your post – glad he did.
    I have pretty much kept my comments about the whole debacle in private forums – like facebook circles & private conversations. Mostly, I guess, because I learned my lesson back in the days of Usenet when not masking your identity with a gender-neutral ID meant getting called all of those things and worse no matter *what* the topic was if the forum was unmoderated.

    But I don’t really blame Arrington – those same trolls that showed up in his comments are all over Digg & Reddit posting similarly all day long. Misogynistic morons who can do no better than to reduce every conversation to “yeah, um, you’re not a man!” in the most debased of terms.

    That he showed up above in your comments says something. He didn’t exactly address the main focus of your post – but at it has been added to his deliberation.

    For the record though? The trolls who devolve every conversation to name-calling because they can’t refute anything intelligently? Also use that tactic against men. Ask how many men you know have that ‘one guy’ they’ve had to work with who calls anyone he needs to bully a ‘wimp’ or a ‘pussy’… They pretty much devolve to name calling in person & online.

    The difference is that as intelligent, creative, talented women – we tend to just walk away from doing business in toxic environments like that… whereas most men are socialized to believe that you just have to ‘put up with it to get ahead.’ (Note – yeah, I know I’m making sweeping generalizations. Most of us wouldn’t end up reading this unless we were already outliers – no matter what our gender.)

    Great post Michelle. I’m sorry you had to end up the bullseye for such vitriol and hatred… Consider it a badge of honor. Not a much coveted one, but one nonetheless.

  • Francine hardaway

    Michelle, thanks from all of us, but don’t feed the trolls. I see this in Leo laPorte’s chartroom, too and my only comment is that I went ro Bronx HS of Science where I had to pass a math test to get in, and to Cornell, where my SAT math scores were as high as any man’s. I have been a serial entrepreneur, a professor, an Intel employee, and an angel investor. And yet I also see eyes roll sometimes when I enter the geek world. My only answer to the guys is “call me when you have started and helped all the ventures I have and also mothered two children and fostered three, and when you can still stand on your head at age 69. In other words, trolls, go f**k yourselves. :-)

  • http://chenergyconsulting.com Jennie Chen

    Michelle,

    Sorry that happened to you. Having been in several vehicle circles, I completely understand how you feel. Some people (men or women) just have no sense of decency or respect. Screw them.

    I somewhat disagree with the other comments. There’s two schools of thought on trolls which ironically is like dog training: ignore them or address the behavior(by deletion or other).

    I’ve been apart of many communities, and ignoring trolls rarely works because inevitably, someone will respond to the troll. The troll will think that if he or she is not addressed, that he or she is right (whatever that means), and continue to trash a community. I personally believe that healthy communities need to be cultivated for growth and curated to get the nasty trolls out of there.

  • http://evasmith.wordpress.com Eva Smith

    Michelle,

    Sorry you had to go through that. Thank you for standing up for Women In Tech! I noticed the outrageous feedback on the Techcrunch post and found it to be offensive to women as well. You’re right on with the comment moderation. I’m looking forward to Techcrunch cleaning it up, but definitely not holding my breath.

  • Anonymous

    Test. why are all my comments now dead? That is lame.

  • http://www.cristinajcordova.com Cristina Cordova

    Thanks for posting this! I’m glad someone finally stood up to those ridiculously heinous Techcrunch comments!

  • omer

    I’m impressed, Michelle, that you managed to get through that experience so well. It sounds like a horrible experience, but reading your comments, you even managed to remain positive in many cases.

    Among all the trash, there were also some pretty fantastic comments in there, specifically Leona101′s comment that’s now way down in the thread: http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/28/women-in-tech-stop-blaming-me/#comment-72999286 (unfortunately, it looks like disqus isn’t handling permalinks very well right now).

  • Eric

    @Michelle, way, way up there somewhere: you wrote ” they gravitate.” What if they don’t gravitate at all? What if they pervade everything and are merely waiting for any opportunity to be mean? The state of civil discourse in the good ol’ US of A is alarmingly decrepit; it’s starting to seem likely that we’re essentially stupid and unpleasant.

  • http://simplechatter.com Zach Moazeni

    Unfortunately, over the years I’ve seen a few ugly incidents where a female was singled out online and verbally attacked. To me, there is one thing worse than these gut-less commenters: it’s telling a minority to “suck it up” or “don’t take it personal” or “that’s just the way it is” or “quit whining”.

    If you’re someone who tells a minority to ignore abuse, you need to seriously reconsider your position. Because it is sickening.

  • http://simplechatter.com Zach Moazeni

    Looks like you just implemented Disqus as I posted my comment:

    Unfortunately, over the years I’ve seen a few ugly incidents where a female was singled out online and verbally attacked. To me, there is one thing worse than these gut-less commenters: it’s telling a minority to “suck it up” or “don’t take it personal” or “that’s just the way it is” or “quit whining”.

    If you’re someone who tells a minority to ignore abuse, you need to seriously reconsider your position. Because it is sickening.

  • Anonymous

    Future post coming on the subject today.

  • Steve Smith

    I’m with you – it’s easy to assume this isn’t a problem when, in one’s own circle, it doesn’t seem to happen. It’s pretty freaking obvious that women can be capable and intelligent leaders, so arguing it is a bit like arguing that the world is not flat. Sad that ignorance is still so widespread.

  • http://www.victusspiritus.com/ Mark Essel

    I’ve had much more enjoyable and pleasant interaction on AVC.com. If you’re interested in talking about entrepreneurship and business, there’s no better conversation place on the web.

  • steph

    Will be sharing this blog with my class when we discuss “Does sexism still exist?” Does “HELL YES” sound a bit too strong???

  • http://www.michellesblog.net/social-media-and-society/why-the-women-in-tech-issue-isnt-techcrunch-its-us Who Really Was the Man Behind the Curtain in the Women in Tech Debacle? | Michelle’s Blog

    [...] SUBSCRIBE ← My Challenge to Michael Arrington & TechCrunch (Hint: it’s Not Hard) [...]

  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous

    Hi Steph, thanks for coming to my blog. Here is an update to this post:
    http://www.michellesblog.net/social-media-and-society/who-really-was-the-man-behind-the-curtain-in-the-women-in-tech-debacle

    “Hell yes” might scare away the boys and not make them listen, methinks.

  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous

    Lucretia, you are spot on about sexism and trolls being everywhere. Here is an update to this:
    http://www.michellesblog.net/social-media-and-society/who-really-was-the-man-behind-the-curtain-in-the-women-in-tech-debacle

  • Anonymous

    Hey Marc, I was pretty shocked too. There’s an update to this situation having to do with the Disqus integration:
    http://www.michellesblog.net/social-media-and-society/who-really-was-the-man-behind-the-curtain-in-the-women-in-tech-debacle

  • Anonymous

    Hi Audry, I agree. This is just the beginning and I’m afraid it will all get thrown back in the closet like it always does. There’s an update to this situation:
    http://www.michellesblog.net/social-media-and-society/who-really-was-the-man-behind-the-curtain-in-the-women-in-tech-debacle

  • Anonymous

    Thank you for getting in the thick of things to stick up for us. There’s an update to this situation:
    http://www.michellesblog.net/social-media-and-society/who-really-was-the-man-behind-the-curtain-in-the-women-in-tech-debacle

  • http://twitter.com/annmariastat annmariastat

    I did post a comment on Tech Crunch when this was going on just because I could not stand seeing you attacked. Good for you for sticking to your guns. The truth is, like the tea party, Glenn Beck and others who make up their own facts, those who rely on pseudoscience and a selective view of the world are not going to be dissuaded and your time is probably best served growing your company.

    Reading some of those really stupid comments reminded me of the saying,

    “Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but they’re not entitled to their own facts.”

    Good for you, fighting the good fight.

  • http://twitter.com/rachelsklar rachelsklar

    Slow golf clap for you, Michelle! You were terrific – and Lord, persistent – in those comments. Kudos.

  • http://www.missi.com/ Peter Beddows

    Completely agree.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jan-Der/100001393296342 Jan Der

    You are the exact type of delusional self-entitled CUUUUNT that men can’t stand. Idiot women like you are no match for intelligent men. This is why your solution to 10 min. cry in the shower is to ban all free speech for men.

    Real men laugh at self-entitled cuuunts like you, thinking you matter to the rest of the world. Grow the fuuucck up moron. Nobody is impressed by your 2nd grade pouting and holding your breath. lol :D

  • http://twitter.com/nydailyquote NY Daily Quote

    It is a sad fact that the same people who deny misogyny exists in the tech world, or anywhere else, are the first ones to use the C-word. Just goes to show what women face, as entrepreneurs and anywhere else…. It’s disgusting that you were subjected to such treatment, Michelle, simply for pointing out the truth. And I found Mr. Arrington’s “yeah, OK, whatever, Rachel,” patronizing and childish.

  • http://twitter.com/vsagarv Vijaya Sagar

    Michelle,

    Now why do you have to make a thorough caricature of yourself like this? People who know you and care about you already know you are intelligent. They don’t need your SAT score to believe that.

    So, rule #0: Don’t cry. If you do cry, don’t tell people who care less. You must know this, but am just saying.

    Just a couple of days back, some anonymous dude called me a ‘sissy’ on Techcrunch (along with a racist remark “you people”) and then a ‘sexist’. But how the exact heck does it matter to me?

    ‘a good week ahead.

  • Victor von Doom

    Michelle,

    You obviously don’t have a clue. Rushing headfirst into an argument with “my SAT score…blah blah blah” is (evidently) a quick way for you to have your foot firmly placed in your mouth and crushed by people who know what they’re talking about. Not everything has to be an “issue”. Deal with it. Thousands of other under-represented people, including myself, do. There are more effective ways to make the change that you’d like to see.

  • lemiffe

    I believe, however, one good thing will come out of this whole issue: A bit more popularity ;p

  • http://www.victusspiritus.com/ Mark Essel

    Ah the “community” at TechCrunch leaves something to be desired.

  • http://openid-provider.appspot.com/collection60@googlemail.com Collection60

    lol

  • http://openid-provider.appspot.com/collection60@googlemail.com Collection60

    Wow. Great analysis. OK, let’s see what *I* saw:

    Some guy:
    “Less women undertake degrees in quantitative disciplines than men. This is due to brain function. Men and women are not equal, nor is one sex better than the other. It just is the way it is.

    There’s no one to blame, which is why people are upset with this topic. Blame must always be placed.”

    You: “michellegreer
    Yo, my math SAT score was, in all probability, higher than yours. Watch your tongue.

    Not quite sure you have to have a quantitative brain to run a company either. Leadership takes all sorts of forms. It just surrounds itself in talent that makes up for where it lacks.”

    OK. So the guy makes a perfectly reasonable observation. He states that women in general are less intelligent. That’s fine, right? Does it mean ALL women are not intelligent? No. Just talking about averages. I’m sure as an intelligent female, you understand the concept of averages, that there can be extremes in a set that do not change the character of the set itself. That the tallest man on Earth could be chinese despite chinese being shorter on average.

    So thats all he was saying.

    Then you barge in, telling him “Erm, I’m smarter than you are, watch your mouth”.

    lol.

    And now you are crying about all this? Would a man cry about this?

    When are you gonna whine about not enough women being homeless or dying in wars?

    This makes no sense. If you were REALLY as intelligent as you claim to be, you would understand averages. And you would not be upset that a guy said that on average, females are less intelligent, because you yourself would know you are far more intelligent than the average female.

    But instead you get upset. Why? Perhaps it’s because….

    dunduhdun… YOU ARE PRETENDING TO BE INTELLIGENT!

    Thats generally how it works, in my experience. Women get upset about this shit and cry, because they are pretending to be something they aren’t. Their illusion that they are as smart as men, only exists if women as a whole are as intelligent as men as a whole.

    I know I’m better looking than most males. Maybe not better looking than most females, but I’m closer to looking pretty/beautiful than most males are. I don’t get upset that people say that females on average are better looking than males. Well. I’m upset that this is true, but I don’t DENY it to be true. I just wish it weren’t true.

    You on the other hand, deny reality.

    Fucking loser.

  • http://openid-provider.appspot.com/collection60@googlemail.com Collection60

    I think Marilyn proved that IQ means nothing.

    What did Marilyn actually ACHIEVE in life? She solved some puzzles on paper. But she never invented anything. Because it’s too hard for her poor little female brain.

    She also proved that some stupid people take IQ scores too seriously.

  • http://openid-provider.appspot.com/collection60@googlemail.com Collection60

    “I didn’t read much of that trainwreck on Techcrunch. There wasn’t much provided in the way of cogent arguments, rather “hey! look at me!”"

    You mean, like where Michelle said “I’m smarter than you, you’ll never be able to run a business, watch your mouth”

    in response to the statement: “Women, on average, are less good at technical subjects”.

    Doesn’t that count as “hey look at me?”

    Also, even if she WAS smarter than him, it doesn’t change his point. So her argument wasn’t a good argument. And she had no way to prove that she was more intelligent than him. And the fact that her argument made no sense, was evidence of lack of intelligence.

    So surely… your description applies to Michelle? Perhaps you shouldn’t read much of what Michelle writes then, given that you don’t like to read stuff that is “a hey me, uncogent argument”.

  • http://openid-provider.appspot.com/collection60@googlemail.com Collection60

    When I was at school, a female teacher managed to destroy 8 years of my working life, by lying to me… She told me I’d got such a terrible report for something I did at work experience, that ALL my future employers would see it, BUT… and here’s the ridiculous thing, she couldn’t tell me what it is that I supposedly did.

    Actually I did nothing wrong. But she just lied to me as a 16 year old kid, to scare the shit out of me, so that I’d be too emotionally abused to want to work.

    It was only when I was 24, after getting some therapy and ending up crying (again) over all that abuse… that I was able to… try to find employed work.

    Oh, that evil bitch of a teacher also told me that I’d never invent anything, in response to me saying my career ambitions was to work in R&D. She said I’d be stuck at the back of a lab, and that I was wrong to write down my ambitions!

    How does that fit in with your bitching?

    Anyhow, I did end up inventing stuff, in computing, not in the academia, because I was too fed up of how nasty these academics are. From looking back over history though, I’ve seen how most male inventors got similar treatment, even if not as bad as what I got with that lie about me not being able to get jobs again because of some secret report.

    And yet you whine about sexism, when men get worse treatment?

  • http://www.dangoldin.com Dan Goldin

    Michelle,

    Thanks for writing this post. We all need to be more vigilant and call out this juvenile behavior.

  • http://www.dangoldin.com Dan Goldin

    Michelle,

    Thanks for writing this post. We all need to be more vigilant and call out this juvenile behavior.

  • Anonymous

    First of all, I’m not crying at all to Michael Arrington. I just told him that if someone calls me a c**t on his blog and tells me to go kill myself, perhaps he might want to moderate his commenters a bit more if he actually wants civil discourse at TechCrunch.

    Secondly, Arrington agrees with me that it got bad as you can see in his comment below yours. He also contacted me and personally apologized, so apparently you are alone in your assessment

    Thirdly, the fact that you would call me a fucking loser on my own blog demonstrates why women feel belittled in such situations, and why I spoke out.

    All I can say is, I’m not sure why you would say such things. There really is no reason to be so angry.

  • Anonymous

    Fred, this was exactly my position. A blog isn’t just the people behind it, it’s the community around it.

  • Anonymous

    Why do you deal with it? How has that been working for you?

  • Anonymous

    The fact that you have labeled me a “caricature” is comical to me. You have never been in my shoes and so I do not welcome your judgment here at my blog.

    If it doesn’t matter that someone called you a “sissy” or referred to “your people”, then why are you telling me? Why is it not just a passing thought?

  • Anonymous

    Jason, he’s rectifying the situation. I promise. ;-)

  • Anonymous

    Jen actually responded in the thread to the idea that men somehow inherently have higher IQs. So by your logic, the men who initially brought up the whole IQ argument are, in fact, stupid.

    Nice work. Seriously.

  • Anonymous

    @collection Your teacher was a bad person. It had nothing to do with her sex.

    Imagine that teacher telling you you couldn’t work in R&D, because you are a male. Now imagine that not only did they tell you this, they frequently call on the female students before they call on you.

    Studies show boys get called on more than girls.

    I’m sorry your teacher made you feel that way. It is not right at all.

  • Nele

    Michelle, thanks for posting this. Next time someone tells me that women creating women-only spaces is sexist towards men, I think I’ll be pointing out how one can’t drop a pro-feminist comment in a lot of “for everyone” spaces without having to fear this kind of backlash. I’m sorry you had to go through this.

  • chauvinistsSux

    Collection60 stated “in general are less intelligent. That’s fine, right? Does it mean ALL women are not intelligent? No. Just talking about averages.”

    But in fact, he is wrong about that.

    A 1995 study performed by the American Psychological Association in response to the book The Bell Curve (which investigated intelligence differences between different social classes) shows no difference in average IQ between sexes.

    But when the OP argues that is not true, he claims she is “PRETENDING TO BE INTELLIGENT”… then ends by calling her a “Fucking Loser”…

    On average, more women are attending college than men… so according to your logic of averages, you have a much higher chance of being a “Fucking Loser” than the OP…. and given your angry, irrational and inaccurate comment above… I’m going to go out on a limb here and say, you are DEFINITELY a “Fucking Loser”.

  • chauvinistsSux

    Earl

    Take a look at Zach’s comment below…

    *snip* Unfortunately, over the years I’ve seen a few ugly incidents where a female was singled out online and verbally attacked. To me, there is one thing worse than these gut-less commenters: it’s telling a minority to “suck it up” or “don’t take it personal” or “that’s just the way it is” or “quit whining”.
    */snip*

    I couldn’t agree more. The OP is not “whining” (which is again a sexist term typically only applied to women)… she is calling out abusive and sexist language and instead of agreeing that the persons attacking the OP were wrong… You seem to be attacking the OP.

    You’re right .. Entrepreneurship is not easy… and men assuming they are smarter than women and assuming women don’t make good leaders makes it that much harder for women to become entrepreneurs…

  • Jami

    Hey. Add another person horrified by how you were treated. I saw Arrington’s post featured on Google News, but was too busy, y’know, *writing code* to speak up about the ridiculous notion that there just aren’t enough “qualified” women to speak at tech conferences. I hope your treatment opened his eyes a bit about other reasons qualified women aren’t remotely interested in speaking to his audience.

  • http://twitter.com/vsagarv Vijaya Sagar

    Michelle, You are reading a lot more into it than what I wrote. Yet, amidst this crazy situation, if my using the term ‘caricature’ brought you into a comic mood, it is no mean an achievement :) BTW, there are other people who are calling you names. I didn’t.

    I am telling you whatever people called me so that you understand it happens all the time and you don’t give it much credence. If it weren’t a passing thought, I would have written a huge post on my blog. And linked it here, asking your readers to come, read and share my tale of woe.

    Have a good week and wishing you that you always meet reasonable people ahead.

  • Anonymous

    The only thing I would say is that personal attacks on blogs (and other open forums) aren’t limited to just women. Sure, it seems like the attacks on women are more vicious (perhaps because the c word is so derogative, after all calling a man a dick doesn’t quite measure up to the c word) but believe me men also get attacked.

    Misogyny exists but personal attacks isn’t proof of it. In my opinion anyway.

  • Anonymous

    Wait, no more user-generated content then? (GIFT: Greater Internet F*ckward Theory)

    Do you propose we go back to the paper age, when writers can do as they please — because no one can correct them? When editors are the gods that can decide what informations these people can get? Which information is *correct*, and all?

    Come on. This is the Internet age. When people from all around the world can comment — can respond, to each other, regardless where they are, regardless of their position.

    Anonymity is a GOOD thing. Internet is a GOOD thing. Else, you have information overlords who can decide which info to release, which info to hold aback.

    Sorry for my rant, but this is what I believe in. Censorship in a stateless entity is NOT a good thing. Internet is, unlike you believe, not holden to a country, nor to an entity. It is itself. Just ask 4chan.

  • http://techie-buzz.com keithdsouza

    I am a man, but I respect women, the matter of fact that you had to cry because of some stupid idiot who still lives in Stone age is really appalling.

    I wish and hope that you feel better that there are so many women out there who have proven idiots like these wrong and there is nothing wrong in showing off, peace and cheers to you.

  • Kanjoos Machchar

    I think my math score was a bit higher than yours; maybe higher than all others. Anyhow, I like you standing up to this, but I also dislike the reasons you have given for the comments. You say something to a good extreme, you get back replies, after all, it is the yet-unmoderated internet.
    But as I said, it’s good to know you’re standing up to yourself. This is my first time commenting on any blog outside of TC (and I don’t comment too much on TC either, except for [sometimes] trolling MG’s posts). So congratulations to you. :)

  • Nobody

    “OK. So the guy makes a perfectly reasonable observation. He states that women in general are less intelligent. That’s fine, right? Does it mean ALL women are not intelligent?”

    Wow. You’re a real douche. And you’re wrong. Women are just as intelligent as we are. And in your case, more intelligent.

  • Nobody

    Sorry, no. Real men come out of their mom’s basement and love women like Michelle who are making a difference in the world.

  • Open your eyes!!!

    Where does the guy’s statement refers to women as being less intelligent? Stop skimming — start reading!!! The statement refers to brain functions being different, not intelligence. What a useless argument this is. Find something better to do than argue over things that were never stated to begin with.

  • Anonymous

    Michelle everyone including you has a right to their opinion.

    I read the article on women entrepreneurs and hundreds of the comments and many people posted crass and disrespectful comments and many of them were attacking you directly. the very first crass comment I read though was yours, as soon as you mentioned your SAT score being higher than someone else’s you started a pissing contest that was obviously going to end in many aggressive comments.

    I can tell you that to me your comment of “my SAT score is higher than yours” comment was almost the same as someone else’s comment to you of “I make X amount of money and you don’t”

    you claim that your reason for making such a crass comment was because it was Saturday night you were babysitting a drunk friend and you got heated because of how personally you took the comment. Cant you accept that maybe many of the people who responded in an equally crude way might also have been out on Saturday night and might also have taken our post personally and gotten as equally heated as you?

    the people who responded to you were not offended that you were stating the fact that women can be as good as men they were offended that you would claim without any evidence that you had a higher SAT score (which translates to I am smarter than you NANANANANANA!!!)

    I’m sorry that you got offended by a few random people on the internet but I can tell by some comments that you offended people as well.

    your comment wasn’t so much of a “women are equal to men” but more of a ” I am better than all of you” and if theres one thing anonymous people over the internet love doing its a cyber penis measuring contest which as I stated before you started

  • contrarytimes.com

    Michelle,

    There’s a reason why in the past few years, I’ve hung around mostly with women. I’m as red blooded a heterosexual male as any, but I’ve realized that most men have way too many issues with their masculinity to be any fun to be around.

    Seriously, most men I’ve come across are just raging bundles of insecurities, fears, and faux ‘machoness’.

    If you remove all the terribly stupid notions of masculinity we’ve built up in our culture, I guess men would turn out to be okay, but unfortunately, most of them just end up acting like cave men. There is too little class in most men, something I’m ready to accept as a man myself.

    Women, on the other hand, make for much better company. They’re prettier, have better EQ (I won’t talk about IQ because really that is relative from person to person and isn’t gender based), and have no hangups about their sexuality which most men do.

    As a man, if it makes you feel any better, please understand that the root cause of misogyny is insecurity, not a superiority complex. If you ignore the whole thing, you come across as the better one. After all, its their insecurity, not yours.

  • Anonymous

    Thanks, uh, nobody!

  • http://www.facebook.com/valerie.coffman Valerie R. Coffman

    On the other hand, the people posting flagrantly sexist things are mostly anonymous trolls who have no real power. When we pay attention and respond, we grant them power (and waste our time and energy). It’s not just a matter of growing a thicker skin. It’s a matter of having perspective on what’s really important. Why do we care what these guys think? And why bother responding to such mindless comments? When you wrestle with a pig, you just get dirty and the pig likes it.

  • http://blog.midnightchatter.com Scott B

    Great article Michelle!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=502746798 Ahmad Idzwan Ramli

    Some people don’t realise their mom is a woman too. I just can’t believe comments like these even exist in the ‘modern’ world.

  • Sandeep Bali

    Great point.. made really clear over there…. its so simple a math…

    there are two genders.. each of them so much in population… odds are good that one gender would be more intelligent over the other in average.. its a simple fact.. what is so hard to understand there??

    even an 8 year old kid could tell that (irrespective of gender)

    P.S. Feminism is Sexism… i hate both

  • http://www.expectationgap.com ExpectationGap

    I didn’t comment in that article, but I did read and follow it for a time. Let me say that you didn’t articulate anything well-reasoned until your third or fourth post. By then the conversation had spun out of control.

    There’s asking Mike Arrington to curate abusive comments, which I agree with.

    But then there is minimizing your own role in that exchange. You took a “men vs women” article and immediately turned it into a “me vs you” argument. The abusive comments (and commenters) should be removed – no question. I’d just like to see some actual responsibility on your part, instead of playing the “I just said this one little thing and then the hordes attacked me” card.

  • http://www.microsourcing.com/disciplines/community-moderation.asp Offshore Outsourcing

    Assuming that the other commentators in that blog really were chauvinistic pigs, it would be a waste of time to even talk it out with them. There are better, more deserving spaces for Feminist discourse.

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